Réf. : RE: [sc] ISO DIS 26262

Réf. : RE: [sc] ISO DIS 26262

From: Bertrand RICQUE <bertrand.ricque_at_xxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:47:22 +0200
Message-ID: <OFDFB19DFC.82EB8FBC-ONC1257641.002EF5E7-C1257641.002FB3B6@xxxxxx>
From my conversations with the french car makers on exactly the same 
issue, I derived that there were 2 independant issues :

It is out of question (or as a minima must be reduced as much as possible) 
to have officially declared safety systems in a care. The driver must have 
assistances only. So that in case of an accident, it will be the drivers 
fault, not a safety system design issue. This is a responsibility vs legal 
issue. I wonder, from this point of view if the busses and the cars are 
the same. You drive your car, your safety is your problem. You pay to be 
in a bus (or in a plane), your safety is the bus (plane) 
operator's/manufacturer problem.
The IEC 61508 concepts (specially the architectural constraints) apply 
poorly to cars. (IEC61508 talebans would say that it is the fault of the 
cars (should have 8 tires, 2 steering wheels, etc...)).
 In my opinion, the automotive industry has derived the standard according 
to its (cynical) needs as any industrial company and it is a good thing 
that they have a common reference. Then it is a technico-social issue to 
improve it if it is unsufficent.

Bertrand Ricque
Chef de Programme
SAGEM Défense Sécurité
178, rue de Paris
91344 MASSY
Tel +33 1 69 19 87 42
Mob : +33 6 87 47 84 64
Fax +33 1 69 19 66 48
Email bertrand.ricque@xxxxxx


Envoyé par : safety-critical-request@xxxxxx
30/09/2009 10:26
Veuillez répondre à safety-critical
Remis le : 30/09/2009 10:32

        Pour :  <safety-critical@xxxxxx>
        cc :    (ccc : Bertrand RICQUE/DRD/SAGEM)
        Objet : RE: [sc] ISO DIS 26262

Dear Prof. Ladkin,

I followed your "[*]" and read it.
I sure agree partly with the difficulties you mention.

But you say "there is no way I
known of figuring the socially acceptable rate of hurting someone if 
your steering fails."

I fail to see the difference to e.g. the aerospace or nuclear industry.
(Replace "steering fails" with " some function fails")

Are not all the "accepted rates" derived from something like 
a) "how often did it (or something comparable) happen before --> let's use 
this number as a starting point and refine it" 
b) "how big is the risk to die / be hurt from anything --> using new 
technologies shall not increase this risk significantly"?

Of course, hazard analysis using assumptions on what is "hazardous" 
(similar to aerospace or nuclear industry, I believe) are required by ISO 

Furthermore, I believe ISO 26262 does have limits for random HW failures.

Maybe I misunderstood you. Maybe you can explain in more detail?

Viele Gruesse, Simon Schilling

> -----Original Message-----
> From: safety-critical-request@xxxxxx [mailto:safety-critical-
> request@xxxxxx] On Behalf Of Prof. Dr. Peter Bernard Ladkin
> Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 9:41 AM
> To: Safecrit
> Subject: [sc] ISO DIS 26262
> [...]

BMW Group
Simon Schilling
80788 München
Bayerische Motoren Werke Aktiengesellschaft
Vorstand: Norbert Reithofer, Vorsitzender,
Frank-Peter Arndt, Herbert Diess, Klaus Draeger, Friedrich Eichiner, 
Michael Ganal, Harald Krüger, Ian Robertson
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Joachim Milberg
Sitz und Registergericht: München HRB 42243

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Received on Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 09:47:22 BST